Chop Stuey
Newbie
Posts: 1
Registered: 6/17/03
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
 posted on 6/17/03 at 02:50 |
|
|
Trills for Hayden
Could some one please give me hints on what type of trills to use for the Hayden Trumpet concerto?? I'm having trouble with the trills. Especially
the trills in the first movement.
|
|
|
trmpt_mad
Junior Member
Posts: 41
Registered: 9/3/03
Location: NZ
Member Is Offline
Mood: Perky!
|
![[*]](./images/corporate/default_icon.gif) posted on 1/25/04 at 23:27 |
|
|
Hey the trills in that piece are awful!!! I was told to start my trills on the note above the written note. eg. if the trill is on a C start it on a D
and go down to the C. This is true for all the trills throughout the piece - even the continuo trills in the 3rd mvt. Good luck!!! 
Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.
|
|
|
bugler16
Senior Member
Posts: 557
Registered: 9/20/02
Location: KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fired Up!
|
 posted on 1/27/04 at 00:30 |
|
|
Yes for the time period the trills should start on the note (in the key, unless otherwise noted) above the written note and trill down to what is on
the page. However the trills should also resolve to the following pitch (if they are resolved then they are technically mordents). so if you have an
F half note marked with a trill followed by a quarter note E it should be played thusly. (say you trill 16th's just for meters sake) GFGFGFEFE
1e+a2e+a1
All of the trills in the Haydn should be performed this way. (Although longer trills such as the whole note at the bottom of the 1st page should be
entered on an appagetura and then trill) So the whole note A should be played
B ABABABABA GAG
1 2e+a3e+a4 +a1.
I know my "diagrams are rudementary but I hope they are at least somewhat helpful.
|
|
|
Hayden
Member
Posts: 181
Registered: 9/2/03
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 1/27/04 at 06:12 |
|
|
By the way, and I speak for all Hayden's and Haydn's here...his name was Haydn, not Hayden  
|
|
|
highlandsong
Member
Posts: 244
Registered: 12/3/02
Location: NE Kansas
Member Is Offline
Mood: always awesome
|
| posted on 1/27/04 at 14:23 |
|
|
I beg to differ, Bugler. Baroque trills alway begin on the upper auxilliary, as yu diagrammed, but classical trills (Haydn, Hummel) generally do not,
unless immediately preceeded by a grace note of the upper note.
dave
Whenever you play, someone learns something.
|
|
|
bugler16
Senior Member
Posts: 557
Registered: 9/20/02
Location: KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fired Up!
|
| posted on 1/27/04 at 23:39 |
|
|
I was always told the opposite of what you just stated. As was Trmpt_mad according to a previous post in this thread. Although I may have them
backwards. This is an interesting and important topic that perhaps I should research to find the appropriate answer. I have always started trills in
baroque music on the given note and trills in Classical music on the note above.
|
|
|
highlandsong
Member
Posts: 244
Registered: 12/3/02
Location: NE Kansas
Member Is Offline
Mood: always awesome
|
| posted on 1/28/04 at 09:33 |
|
|
From Harper's Dictionary of Music:
"In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries[Baroque] the trill was usually started on the upper note; since the early nineteenth century[Classical]
it has usually begun on the lower note." (brackets mine).
Also see: The Interpretation of the Music if the XVII and XVIII Centuries" by Arnold Dolmetsch, Page 155.
"The Chief characteristics (of a trill) are:
1. A principal note, part of the harmony, and an auxiliary not a whole-tone or a semitone above it.
2. The rapid alternation of these two notes so arranged rhythmically that the accent falls upon the upper note, at least at the beginning."
dave
Whenever you play, someone learns something.
|
|
|
trmpt_mad
Junior Member
Posts: 41
Registered: 9/3/03
Location: NZ
Member Is Offline
Mood: Perky!
|
| posted on 2/29/04 at 00:53 |
|
|
This is hugely intriguing as i was told by my two teachers at the time i was performing this particular concerto that i was to perform my trills in
the way outlined by bugler. They were also played this way by the trumpeters on the recordings I have of the piece.
Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.
|
|
|
bugler16
Senior Member
Posts: 557
Registered: 9/20/02
Location: KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fired Up!
|
| posted on 2/29/04 at 23:33 |
|
|
Haydn was definately alive and composing during the Classical period being born in 1732 and passing in 1802. The preclassical period starting with
the Age of Enlightenment in the late 1600's. Therefore by the definitions presented above the trill should start on the lower pitch and trill to the
upper pitch. However all of my teachers have always said to start on the upper pitch and to trill to the pitch notated. Also all of the recordings I
have of it from Maurice Andre, to Wynton Marsalis, to lesser known players. The trills all start on the upper note and trill to the notated pitch.
Maybe this is simply due to interpretation or tradition based on performance practices that have been held over the past couple of centuries. The
thought has crossed my mind to get in touch with a "specialist" in this area such as either Edward Tarr or Crispian Steel Perkins and inquire as to
how these trills should be performed and why.
|
|
|
redhatlives4ever
Junior Member
Posts: 60
Registered: 2/18/03
Location: Normal, Il (Illinois State University)
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 3/1/04 at 07:39 |
|
|
I know this is an old topic, but i thought i would throw my two cents in.
With the Haydn being the first big trumpet piece after the baroque era, there are very strong arguments for starting the trill on the upper note
(which i like to do) There are also very strong arguments for starting on the note. Which ever way you decide to do it is correct, if and only if
you do it convincingly, and keep it consistant throughout the piece. If the first trill is on the upper note, then the rest better be there too.
Hope this helps....
redhatlives4ever
|
|
|
dks4011
Junior Member
Posts: 9
Registered: 5/6/06
Location: Black Earth, WI
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 7/19/10 at 16:02 |
|
|
This post may be really old but the subject is important and relevant. I have some historical info on ornamentation at my site, here.
http://www.allthingstrumpet.com/learning/technique/ornamentation/
It is from the viewpoints of Quantz and Pablo Casals.
Enjoy.
UW- Platteville Trumpet~Jazz Studies
Madison Symphony Orchestra
Eclipse Trumpet Artist
www.DavidCooperMusic.com
www.AllThingsTrumpet.com
|
|
|
